Neil deGrasse Tyson discuses Trans rights with Ben Shapiro
Tyson is such a smart man
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SSJVegeta
(374 posts)The headlines should be about how two people who disagree have a constructive conversation. This isn't WWF. They aren't our enemies. Political discourse with people we disagree with is crucial to our democracy.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)Especially to trans people. It's his own fucking hatred and bigotry that caused that "framing"
What's next? Hitler wasn't an enemy to the Jews? George Wallace wasn't an enemy to people of color?
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)You kill enemies. Our true enemies really aren't any individual. It is the concepts of greed, hate, bigotry etc that misguide people into acting in the terrible ways they do.
But Shapiros only sin is being a mouthpiece for those ideas. As a human being he can be swayed and his ideas can be defeated through discourse. But not if we alienate his supporters from the intellect of geniuses like Tyson by talking about how this cult leader was "crushed" in a debate. That framing automatically makes Tyson an enemy in their eyes instead of an ally.
That simply loses more support for critical thought instead of invites it in.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)Are you trying to tell me as someone who is repeatedly targeted by Shapiro and his bigotry how to view him?! Day after day people like me are subjected to his bigotry, his hatred, his calls to erase our rights and his desire to see us eradicated
I'm a human being who has done nothing to Shapiro or anyone else. Why don't you stand up for targeted minorities instead of a far-right christofascist?
I don't appreciate being tone-policed
Response to BootOutTheGoons (Reply #4)
SSJVegeta This message was self-deleted by its author.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)And reaching across the aisle with fucking fascists doesn't work. It didn't work 90 years ago and won't now!
Wanna lecture me about how it's my own fucking fault? Maybe if I fucking took off my dress and quit being a sissy piece of shit none of this would be happening??!?!
Poor fucking Ben Shapiro and his fee fees!!!!!!
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)And when framed as such, can have a huge, positive permanent effect on the masses than if it is framed as a death match.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)They want a death match
But who fucking cares? Can't hurt your boy Shapiro's feelings
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)No i'm not one of them. But if you buy groceries, go to the hospital, ever needed assistance by anybody, grew up with people, work with people: there's a decent chance they follow the guy. (And yeah -as a result they probably have some pretty fucked up ideas about where people like us fit into society), but those shared experiences alone give you far more in common than anything else. If Ben Shapiro is the enemy and his followers are the enemy, you would have to assume that the paramedics you call when you need help, or the firemen who save your house, are also the enemy. You would have to reject those services and reject them entirely because of it. But that's how society falls apart. That's how we fail as human beings: by allowing the infestation of hate from hateful people to warp the minds of otherwise loving individuals.
But if we allow ourselves to hate them like they hate us, we become like them. We aren't them. We can never be like them.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)Come back to me with this when Ben Shapiro and the NAZIS we're supposed to play nice with threaten you and your life and your rights!
I am not some mind exercise and toy in some life simulation game
Speaks volumes that you're working so hard to stand up for Shapiro instead of trans people he wants to harm!
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)They have. Multiple times personally. And yes currently they are threatening all of our lives and our rights. But that only increases the need for discourse. Not the other way around.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)Don't lecture me and expect the trans community to do so
But I know... Better MAGA than trans around here
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)We've all been through shit and that doesn't justify reinforcing hatred.
I have had knives pulled on me during politcial debates, called "the enemy (the kind that should die)" because I'm mixed race, had cops pull guns on me because I looked a specific race, and am having my livelihood threatened by the government because I'm a federal employee. Had much of my livelihood taken from me cause of a disability. My life has been shit in a manner of speaking.
But no, I am not going to blame it all on Ben Shapiro and his supporters, and neither should you.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)You will not lecture me. You will not tell me what to feel. You will not tell me what to think. You will not tone police me. And you will not demand I play nice with nazi subhuman scum like Ben Shapiro.
The fact you would rather abuse me and defend a MAGA bigot tells me plenty about you and your views on trans people
As usual: MAGA gets more respect and kindness than trans people around here
Wake me when you decide to put 10% of the effort to defend trans people that you've just spent defending a far-right bigot and fascist
And in closing: BEN SHAPIRO IS THE ENEMY
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)Or because you were hurt.
Random commenter's giving an opinion about how to preserve democracy and what we can do individually to do so, is not actually abuse.
Dehumanizing others? That is evil and abusive regardless of what has been done to the person doing it.
Envirogal
(195 posts)Obviously, this is a very passionate issue for you but reading this thread it is you who responded to the comment at first, thus putting your counter opinion and policing out there. So the “lecturing and tone policing” complaints are ridiculous and a very weak tactic to deflect away from the intent of their comment. They did not “abuse” you. Jeez quit using crutches like that just to try and diffuse some other’s point that you obviously weren’t able to counter without letting the emotion take over. DU is a forum where people discuss issues and the opinions of others are the product. Don’t turn this into a tone police thing when it’s a public forum and you willingly step into the ring.
The real point of the original comment is valid: every single freaking post online anymore makes everything seem like they are about to enter a click bait WWE battle, when it is much more mild and reasonable. Many of the still photo shots and headlines look they came from porn sites. There is so much hyperbole and over selling what the actual content is.
Talking to the enemy is actually a good thing because while you may not convince them, there’s a lot of people in the comment section and views that you might be able to reach. Writing everyone off is placebo that makes you think you are doing something. But it’s an empty calorie sugar high of further ground loss.
I hate these right wing MFers but I’m not going to let them allow them to guzzle all of the oxygen in the room unchallenged. I go into their den of crazy and argue all the time. It’s amazing because I’m starting to see shifts from some of the followers to explore other sources of information once their echo chamber cracks. Not all of the followers are hard-core. Some are curious or even just lost for a moment.
The Dems ignored right wing podcast for so long and that was at their detriment. The framing of the arguments have been set and now we have to battle it out to get our voices heard and counter this BS.
BootOutTheGoons
(305 posts)Yeah! It's my fucking life on the line!!!!
vercetti2021
(10,445 posts)It is transphone underground after all
ShazzieB
(20,274 posts)Those are two separate -- not unrelated, but separate -- issues.
First of all, the word enemy has a much broader meaning than someone you want to kill. That's one sense in which the word can be used, but not the only one. I just did a quick Google, and the first definition of "enemy" that came up is "a person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something." Ben Shapiro and others like him are obviously enemies of trans people in that respect, because they want to make laws that limit or even eliminate their rights.
Dehumanizing one's enemies is something we should all try to avoid (although it can be VERY hard, especially when they're dehumanizing you), and being able to have a thoughtful conversation with someone you disagree with can be a constructive thing IF the other person is willing to do that (which is not always the csse). Even though I'm just an old, straight, cis, white lady, I can easily see that it can be excruciatingly hard, if not impossible, for a trans person to have such a conversation with someone who literally wants to legislate against their right to exist (and there are plenty of people who want to do so). That's why it's important for cis allies to stand with them and speak up o their behalf, especially at a time like this, when their rights are under fierce attack.
The trans community also needs the rest of us to respect the fact that they know who their enemies are, and that they have the right to call them out. Any oppressed or marginalized group knows damned well who their enemies are, and those who are not a member of such a group do NOT have the right to tell those in the group who their enemies are or are not.
Cis people who want to be allies can do what Neil DeGrasse Tyson did in this video while also being fully aware of who the enemies of the trans community are.
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)But I see your point and do not contest it. It is very well stated.
Ben Shapiro has no relevance to me or my life outsids of vocally advocating againdt my freedom and being generally obnoxious, but I appreciate Tyson for taking the time to put up with him.
ShazzieB
(20,274 posts)I appreciate it!
SSJVegeta
(374 posts)
Maraya1969
(23,240 posts)ShazzieB
(20,274 posts)The click bait titles that a lot of these videos are given are often not really helpful to anyone, imo. They are designed to attract attention, and they certainly do that, but the tactic has been so overused that a lot of us roll our eyes when we see a video labeled the way this one was. The title you gave this post was descriptive without sensationalizing. It's unfortunate that anyone would let themselves get distracted by the language used by the video's creator.
vercetti2021
(10,445 posts)Do you hear yourself right now? this is the most ridiculous shit I've ever heard. The only good Nazi is a Dead Nazi and Ben Shapiro is very much one he is the enemy. I mean you're pretty much saying the quiet part out loud.
czarjak
(12,760 posts)Rushbo lives on through this man-made media empire that has made fortunes for the top echelons like Boreing. The fact that they've succeeded is a true testament to hateful ignorance. Period. F-'Em-All
rickford66
(5,826 posts)They don't always match the sexual organs. There's a percentage of people caught by this scientific fact. Also, all fetuses are female at conception and not everyone develops according to political beliefs.
ShazzieB
(20,274 posts)As you pointed out, all fetuses start out with the same anatomy, and some develop in such a way that they are born with anatomy that does not clearly correspond to either side of the gender binary. (The term for this is intersex.) Those who insist on the gender binary and want to put everyone in a little box labeled XX or XY conveniently ignore the existence of intersex people. However, they do exist, and imo, their very existence is evidence that the gender binary is an illusion, and that we need to take a broader view of what gender is and how it may or may not correspond to an individual's genetic makeup.
rickford66
(5,826 posts)I figured wrong. Anyway Shapiro is the most annoying person to listed to.