In 1901 there was no conflict in Palestine. No Israel, no 6 day war.

[gd1]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Lithos (a host of the Israel/Palestine group).

https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/topophysicalpalestine-bartholomew-1901

In 1901, there was no conflict in Palestine. The linked map shows that Palestine was known at that time. If Israel did not exist, there would be no 6 day war. There was no Israel in 1901. The people were there, but there was no conflict. If Israel had not been established, therefore, there would be no 6 day war. There would be no 50 years of apartheid. And no 500 days of bombing campaigns in Gaza.

Israelis came over and started troubles with their Irgun insurgency [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine]. They did this because they feel they have a historical claim to the land. I would argue that after the UN was established, conquest should have become obsolete. They took the land by conquest in 1967. And furthermore with illegal settlements:

"Israel has justified its civilian settlements by claiming that a temporary use of land and buildings for various purposes appears permissible under a plea of military necessity and that the settlements fulfilled security needs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Israeli_settlements#Israel

They built houses on what was, by their own admission, temporary land. And purchases of land were made regarding "temporary land". They have become more brazen in asking for conquest of Gaza (https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220364287) in these times because they think that they have the might to do whatever they want (despite Netanyahu potentially threatening authoritarianism in Israel given that he tried to fire the attorney general while on trial for bribery, fraud, and breach of public trust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu).

This is standard live by the sword, die by the sword/might makes right mentality. But that sword cuts both ways.

So, I look at it in one of two ways. Israel was the cause of the problems that weren't there in 1901 and should give back all the land it took in 1967 and with Illegal settlements. Or, they can go with the irredentist approach and take the land by might and then lose it by might. And if they lose it, whatever the Palestinians decide to leave to them (if anything, Allah (SWT) knows best and we try as Muslims to act with justice) is what they receive. And they may well choose the latter choice now, but if they lose, and lose badly, then that is a choice they will have made. I would have preferred a peaceful approach, but as per 1901, it seems the Zionists never really had any intention of peace.

//Since Reddit kept blocking this with filters... and twitter has a character count limit... here we go.

A bit more: Islamically, we're not supposed to reflect with grief over what has passed. So, I am noting that so I don't run afoul of that if I can avoid it. But, I am noting one of the actors in the conflict and it's difficult to post this without certain wording.

[brush]

1. Good read. I understand your perspective. There was no problem in 1901, then there was...

land was claimed, land was stolen, land was 'purchased temporarily' for military
reasons that became permanent.

Come on. The injustice continues.

[LymphocyteLover]

2. Many Jews long wanted to return to their "homeland" and it was a big movement for decades

then the holocaust and WW2 happened and the Brits made Israel happen. It is done and there is no going back.

[Beastly Boy]

3. In 1901, there was no Palestine.

What the British later named Palestine was part of three separate Ottoman provinces, none of them named Palestine.

There was no peace withing the Ottoman Empire in 1901 either. It was the time when the empire experienced the worst constitutional crisis in its history, leading to The Young Turks rebellion of 1908 the collapse of dynastic rule, and eventually the disintegration of the entire empire.

Ironically, the map you linked to shows Judea and Samaria, but not Palestine.

There were no Israelis either. The State of Israel was formed in 1948, as a response to the UN partition of the former mandatory Palestine, a British protectorate since 1920. The trouble started way before Irgun was formed, and not by "Israelis". By 1967, Israel was recognized by the vast majority of UN member states as a sovereign independent state, in fact and in law.

"They built houses on what was, by their own admission, temporary land." is an ignorant statement that has no reflection anywhere. Your further comment underscores the ridiculous nature of this statement. By definition, a purchase signifies permanent ownership and establishes legal claim to the purchased property.

Nobody is "asking" for conquest of Gaza. Nobody thinks that "that they have the might to do whatever they want". Israel was not, an is not the cause of the problem you allege happened in 1901, nearly half a century before Israel came into existence.

What an overall ignorant and malicious post! Makes it clear why what you think on the subject can be safely ignored.

[Mosby]

6. Flag of Palestine 1939

In 1967 the Israelis didn't steal land, they liberated land that had been illegally annexed by Jordan and Egypt. An important distinction you are ignoring.

[Beastly Boy]

8. Your map titled "Palestine" shows most of Lebanon, parts of Syria and Jordan's East Bank, and it doesn't show Gaza.

This is what was known to some as "Palestine" at the time, and clearly this is not what you are talking about. On the West Bank, as per your map, you can clearly see designations of Samaria and Judea. This is what was known as Samaria and Judea at the time, and this is the area that is the subject of your... ummm... attention.

"Name one noteworthy conflict in 1901 in that area and provide a link."
- What a ridiculous request! By your logic, I challenge you to name one noteworthy conflict in Poland in 1938. Yet, by 1939, Poland was occupied by the armed forces of Germany and Soviet Union. Name one noteworthy conflict in Finland in 1939. One noteworthy conflict in Ethiopia in 1934. I can go on, but your proposition is absurd on its face. If you are interested in finding out how the Young Turks rebellion lead to disintegration of the Ottoman empire, or the Arab revolts from in what your map designates as Palestine 15 years later, Wikipedia is your friend.

"There were no Israelis either." Precisely my point. There was no 6 day war before there was an Israel."
- Another ridiculous red herring. By your logic, the same goes for Egypt, Jordan and Syria. There was no 6-day war before there were these countries either. And there was no Mexican-American war before there was a Mexico or a United States. Duh.

[Beastly Boy]

10. Palestine existed as a geographical unit.

Like "The Great Lakes" exist, or Sahara exists. Analogies do help in identifying red herrings.

On your map, the designation of Palestine exists along with Judea and Samaria. Except the latter designates the geography of what you are talking about more precisely than the former. If that's what you are trying to prove, congratulations, Judea and Samaria it is, and your map is proof!

A single year with no conflict signifies nothing. And again, not only are you absurdly limiting your timeframe, you are limiting the definition of conflict itself. Hence the references to the other side of the planet - the inanity of your claims is made evident when compared to other analogous circumstances.

"I could go into detail about how much land the Jewish people actually owned (purchased from the ottomans and otherwise)"
- By all means do so. But compare apples to apples while you are at it. How much land did the Arabs (not their absentee Ottoman landlords) own, and how much of it was owned by a handful of wealthy Arab absentee landowners? How much of it was public land, not owned by either the Arabs or the Jews? How much of it was designated by the UN to be the Jewish State? How much of it did the Arabs lose after they declared war on Israel in 1948? How much of it was annexed by Jordan and occupied by Egypt by 1950?

Which reminds me: are you sure you want to stick with the 6-day war? How much do you know about Jordanian and Egyptian territories Israel conquered in that war?

Context is a bitch.

[Beastly Boy]

12. It's been nice knowing you.

I do not respond to personal attacks.

[Lithos]

13. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

L-