Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

bigtree

(93,391 posts)
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 12:48 PM Apr 2025

Picking a fight with the country holding nearly a trillion dollars in U.S. debt is Trump's stupidest fallback

...putting aside that leaving 10% across-the-board tariffs on all countries in place, not to mention the 25% retaliatory tariffs on Canada and Mexico, would be market shattering in any normal political or economic environment, you have to ask why the White House's supposed Tariff-eve jitters about the bond market didn't give more heed to the fact that the country they were picking the largest most prominent fight with holds some $750 billion dollars in U.S. securities.

If China decided to retaliate against those absurdly high tariffs Trump announced yesterday and decided to offload U.S. securities such as Treasuries and agency bonds, the faith and credit of America could be damaged irreparably for decades.

China and Hong Kong collectively hold about $1 trillion of these securities, putting it in a unique position to damage America''s financial liquidity, effectively ending the deficit spending game that allows Congress to make extravagant budget choices like $4.7 trillion dollar tax breaks for wealthy investors to chase what remains of a neutered money market.

Yale economist Stephen Roach warned about this late last year:

Beijing's "ultimate financial weapon" may be its massive accumulation of US Treasury debt. According to Roach, mainland China and Hong Kong collectively hold $1 trillion of these securities, putting it in a unique position to damage Washington's financial health.

"China could go on a buyer's strike during upcoming Treasury auctions, or, even more extreme, it could start to unload its outsize position as America's second-largest foreign creditor," he said. "Either option would be devastating for America's deficit-prone economy and would unleash havoc in the US bond market, with wrenching collateral damage in world financial markets."


Outside of the shady pump and dump surrounding the Trump announcements yesterday that predictably sent the market soaring, and just as predictably enabled profit-taking the morning after, there was a sharp drop in that U.S. bond market in which China has such a controlling interest.

Unlike almost every economic crisis this country has experienced, yesterday saw a sharp drop in the number of investors willing to put their money in America, a drop off of countries willing invest in the bond market whose strength Trump had been pointing to selling his tariff plan.

Boston Globe:

At the end of last week, the up and down tariffs and Trump’s confusing policies were seen as a drag on the economy. While stocks fell, bonds followed the common pattern and gained. The yield on the 10-year fell from about 4.20 percent to just under 4 percent.

But this week, amid growing fear that the tariff plan won’t be quickly negotiated away, bonds prices tanked and the yield on the 10-year rose above 4.50 percent.


China has already been making noise about investing their money elsewhere. Last year speculation around China's potential "de-dollarization" strategy was intensifying. China's holdings of US Treasury bonds declined last March from over $1.2 trillion in 2017 to $767 billion.

Moreover, the reason countries invest in America is a combination of stability and value; enforcement of laws and responsible economic policy that's clear and stable so that businesses can have a good sense of the efficacy of long term investments.

Donald Trump's autocratic treatment of the nation's economic interests as his own personal piggybank where the only clear requisite is pleasing him is threatening to transform our nation into yet another liquefied asset of his that he's running into the ground.
20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Picking a fight with the country holding nearly a trillion dollars in U.S. debt is Trump's stupidest fallback (Original Post) bigtree Apr 2025 OP
Who wants to invest in some stupid corrupt dysfunctional third-world shithole run by a demented tyrant dalton99a Apr 2025 #1
"...Trump's autocratic treatment of the nation's economic interests as his own personal piggybank ,,," riversedge Apr 2025 #2
trump is NOT going to win a trade war with China LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2025 #3
Plus history shows China and the Chinese are able to sustain more pain than the US and Americans. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2025 #4
PM Carney, PhD Econ, has been deploying strategies with US Treasury notes Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2025 #5
Interesting graphic. Such different human beings. David__77 Apr 2025 #10
Trump has been antagonizing ChyyNA since Covid. Stupid ass. live love laugh Apr 2025 #6
But if this serves putin's interests, then it makes sense to crater the US bond market (and $ valuation.) erronis Apr 2025 #7
Trump announcing his tariffs on the same day his "special envoy" Steve Witkoff meets with Russian negotiator in the WH bigtree Apr 2025 #18
To Trump, the economy, immigration, civil rights, the evnironment, foreign policy and just about everything else is Ping Tung Apr 2025 #8
Trump doesn't believe in paying his debts. dchill Apr 2025 #9
hmmmm. AllaN01Bear Apr 2025 #11
Germany needs to hurry up and get THEIR gold out of the US and back to Germany. Scalded Nun Apr 2025 #12
better hurry bigtree Apr 2025 #19
I'm not sure about this being that much leverage over US Quixote1818 Apr 2025 #13
the leverage isn't the point here bigtree Apr 2025 #15
Interesting. Thanks nt Quixote1818 Apr 2025 #16
Has anyone heard that markodochartaigh Apr 2025 #14
Yet EdmondDantes_ Apr 2025 #17
trump philosophy rampartd Apr 2025 #20

dalton99a

(92,177 posts)
1. Who wants to invest in some stupid corrupt dysfunctional third-world shithole run by a demented tyrant
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 12:53 PM
Apr 2025

riversedge

(79,497 posts)
2. "...Trump's autocratic treatment of the nation's economic interests as his own personal piggybank ,,,"
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 12:54 PM
Apr 2025

The sentence hit it on the nail!!



..........Donald Trump's autocratic treatment of the nation's economic interests as his own personal piggybank where the only clear requisite is pleasing him is threatening to transform our nation into yet another liquefied asset of his that he's running into the ground.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&post&forum=1002&pid=20226411

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
4. Plus history shows China and the Chinese are able to sustain more pain than the US and Americans. . . . nt
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 01:42 PM
Apr 2025

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
5. PM Carney, PhD Econ, has been deploying strategies with US Treasury notes
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 01:46 PM
Apr 2025
https://www.democraticunderground.com/11216266

Carney's Checkmate: How Canada's Quiet Bond Play Forced Trump to Drop Tariffs

David__77

(24,508 posts)
10. Interesting graphic. Such different human beings.
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 03:00 PM
Apr 2025

I recall watching Trumps 2021 New Year address, then watching Xi’s. One of these people seemed sane and rational.

erronis

(22,690 posts)
7. But if this serves putin's interests, then it makes sense to crater the US bond market (and $ valuation.)
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 01:53 PM
Apr 2025

Ping Tung

(4,144 posts)
8. To Trump, the economy, immigration, civil rights, the evnironment, foreign policy and just about everything else is
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 02:01 PM
Apr 2025

an exercise in showbiz and selling his act to the always fearful rubes who demand a Strong Leader to muscle them to safety.


The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same

Marie Beyle (Stendahl)


dchill

(42,660 posts)
9. Trump doesn't believe in paying his debts.
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 02:51 PM
Apr 2025

Since he now owns America (and all its gulfs), he doesn't think the country should have to pay them, either. It's just one more truth that Fox News with have to alchemize into a much greater truth.

Scalded Nun

(1,608 posts)
12. Germany needs to hurry up and get THEIR gold out of the US and back to Germany.
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 03:12 PM
Apr 2025

I would not trust this country to flush my toilet, let alone guard my precious metals.

Quixote1818

(31,123 posts)
13. I'm not sure about this being that much leverage over US
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 03:18 PM
Apr 2025

Selling U.S. Treasuries hurts China too. It could strengthen the yuan and weaken the dollar, which would hurt Chinese exports (a major part of their economy). The Federal Reserve could step in to buy them.Other countries or domestic investors might buy them at the new, lower prices.

China owning U.S. debt gives them some symbolic and economic influence, but it's not a weapon they can easily use without hurting themselves.

bigtree

(93,391 posts)
15. the leverage isn't the point here
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 03:32 PM
Apr 2025

...if China starts dumping securities, it could create a surplus in the U.S. financial system.

If China and other foreign buyers are stepping back from these auctions — or worse, actively selling in secondary markets — it could dramatically shift the supply-demand balance in the world's largest bond market.

Perhaps most importantly, market complacency could be shattered overnight, quite literally. If U.S. investors wake up to find bond yields 20–40 basis points higher without a domestic catalyst, it may lead to confusion, volatility, and a delayed reaction in equity markets.

If China is indeed offloading Treasuries in response to trade actions or broader geopolitical tensions, it could mark a new phase in the financial cold war — one where the battleground isn't tariffs or semiconductors, but U.S. interest rates themselves.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelshulman/2025/04/09/us-rally-at-risk-as-china-may-be-dumping-treasuries/


...so the Art of the Deal is letting every country on earth know that if they raise interest rates by dumping US Treasuries, we will fold.

Remember, the bond market isn't a static enterprise. It's basically the faith and credit in the U.S. economy. When that trust is gone, when the money shifts away from the U.S., and not just to China, that will affect the willingness of creditors to loan us money for Congress to run deficits off of.

Much like Trump's entire personal economic strategy he's used to bankrupt all his companies.

markodochartaigh

(5,046 posts)
14. Has anyone heard that
Thu Apr 10, 2025, 03:32 PM
Apr 2025

China's 34% tariff level was chosen as an allusion to Trump's 34 felonies?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Picking a fight with the ...