I find myself in an uncomfortable and precarious position. While I want no Americans to suffer from this

[Ferrets are Cool]

evil cabal, I in NO way want the MF'ers to succeed. I want them to fail so badly that it utterly destroys the sick movement.
The dilemma is that this will bring immense pain and suffering to, not only America but also to the world.
I am struggling to find a way to juggle this mental predicament.

[Scrivener7]

1. The only way out is through. Americans need to suffer, and that means you and me.

[BigmanPigman]

2. Sad but true.

[LiberalLoner]

9. +1

[Horse with no Name]

7. Unfortunately that's the only way

We have to drive a nail through the heart of this and that’s the only way

[haele]

27. It's like dealing with older children on an aggressive neuro- divergent spectrum ..

How do you teach an emotionally immature, oppositional, potentially narcissistic older child you are now stuck with for the rest of your life how to act civilized and at least at their own "age" without breaking spirits and destroying the well-being of everyone else in your household in the process?
They are the center of their universe, you aren't part of it other than a "resource" at best.
Bribery doesn't work, just makes them more manipulative, they feel they've "won" and they don't have to respect you.
"Understanding" and "Redirecting" only works sometimes.
Punishing them doesn't work, just makes them meaner.
You can't explain, they won't listen. They don't want to learn, they think they know enough.

[flamingdem]

42. Can I inquire

Is this condition generally a brain thing. Neuro thing? Is there any kind of drug that helps?

[haele]

47. Sometimes. Sometimes not.

Sometimes therapy, sometimes drugs, sometimes both, sometimes neither and they figure it out themselves after learning from hard knocks or growing up?

Is the kid just a spoiled brat or has stubborn habits that will grow out of it with maybe therapy or removal from a bad environment?
Are they autistic/ADHD mix (it's an actual syndrome), are they just autistic, are they just ADHD? A schizophrenic?
Are they an actual Narcissist, budding Sociopath? Are they on a Psychotic spectrum where reality filtering is screwed up - a Narcissist, a Sociopath or a Psychopath.
Thing to remember, difference between Sociopath and Psychopath - some of the best surgeons are psychopaths; not because they want to inflict pain, but because they've come to terms with the inability to feel emotion and use that to get what they "need" - psychopaths can be encouraged/taught to be beneficial in their own way if started early.
Once they become an adult, all bets are off. Any bad habits of reaction have already become ingrained, and it's really hard to re-direct where they're heading.

I'm not a specialist in dealing with the neuro-divergent.
I've just had a lot of interaction with many over the years, some great, some tragic. Each case is different, requires different attention and reaction, and has different outcomes.

[flamingdem]

53. Thanks! I just realized that I've dealt

with some surgeons that must be on the psychotic spectrum.

Wow, explains it all! Especially surgeons for delicate body parts.

[RoeVWade]

30. Trump success means future Trump Clones/imitators. That should scare anyone. Red tie/ Blue coats lunkheads no-nothings

At least that's what I think it will lead to.

[hlthe2b]

3. Yes. That "schizophrenic" reaction to the horrible things he is doing while likewise hoping it reaches a level...

--that incites the end of Trump, Vance, Musk, MAGA, and the complicit Republican party is probably widely held right now. I know I have monitored the DOW, NASDAQ, futures markets, and Tesla stock for that very reason. Do I want you and I and everyone else to suffer horrendous losses from retirement accounts or other? Hell no. but nothing else is waking up our people. I want to see bonfires throughout the country (closely controlled, of course) to burn those damned Trump and MAGA flags and red hats. When that happens, I will feel like at least some are waking up...

[LiberalLoner]

10. I agree. The best I can hope for, personally, is for the pain to be temporary. And my mantra

During all of this has become “first and worst.”
May the people who voted him in be hurt first, and worst.

[CrispyQ]

20. I read a comment the past few days that he has an EO ready to sign to go after the guns.

That will woke them. Only that.

IDK if it's true or not, but I think confiscating guns is part of P-2025.

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. I hear you

If things roll along fairly smoothly for Trump that means we continue sliding into a fascist future with horrible consequences for hundreds of millions for decades. If democracies continue to crumble around the world, ultimately wars and suffering will increase. That's the big picture, that and environmental destruction. Meanwhile all but the privileged and the powerful will suffer here at home while hate and intolerance will rampage unchecked. And we don't have a decade to turn this around. We'll be lucky if we have ten months. wanting to remain comfortably numb is like wanting to sleep through a house fire.

Here's what I posted about this yesterday morning:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220216068

[Scrivener7]

8. This. I hate it, but this has to go really bad or we're doomed.

And if this stock market bump today is anything but a dead cat bounce, that's a bad thing.

[Ferrets are Cool]

11. Sad, but true. Good read Tom!

[SheltieLover]

6. It's called cognitive dissonance, Ferett

Imagine how loud this must be in magats' heads...like a nonstop freight train.

I know exactly whaf you mean, my friend.

I feel pretty much the same way when I see one of TT's posts that Ukranian forces have blown up some huge target against ruskies. I vehemently hate the ruskie govt, but feel guilty for wantimg to celebrate the loss of life & suffering.

Yet, that is across the pond, and this mess is right here...

Let's imagine little green folks from Mars visit soon to remove tsf & his ilk.

[allegorical oracle]

12. Feel the same as you. But when considering the "pain" points, I'm convinced

we can do it. My parents went through the great depression only to be hit by WWII when they were
teenagers. Belts were tightened, meals became more meagre, but they survived and even recalled those days as ones that unified people -- made them value each other more. We can, too.

Only a couple of aspects of our current predicament concerns me. One is the unpredictability; the other is the malignancy of this administration -- the firings, the deportations, the abusive lack of affection this president has for the diverse population he's supposed to lead. We have to have confidence that this leadership style will fatigue even his followers.

All we can do to block his ham-handed ignorance is to stay strong, protest, pester politicians, get involved in voter registration efforts, sign petitions, join with local activists. It takes people by the numbers to create a force that obstructs what he's doing. Vote out Repugs -- change the very character of our politics. Look at this as a positive, creative period to show what stern stuff we're made of.

[bdamomma]

21. this is the comment.

It takes people by the numbers to create a force that obstructs what he's doing.


Exactly, we must not stop, Good Trouble.

[bronxiteforever]

13. The enormous failure is coming whether we to or not

America has sown the wind and we all will reap the whirlwind ( except the billionaires).

[hunter]

17. Billionaires are mortal too...

[appleannie1]

34. Some of the billionaires are going to court trying to stop the fool.

It is digging into their profits as well because they depend on global markets, no just domestic anymore.

[58Sunliner]

14. I just want them to fail, with as little further destruction as possible.

We have not yet reaped the horror of what has already been done.

[kacekwl]

15. The other partner countries

around the world have to push back and basically shun the US until Republicans have to resolve this mess they allowed.

[bdamomma]

23. And our once

allies will shun us. We must stop the felon's regime.

[Hotler]

16. Every war has collateral damage. Some times there is pain before healing can begin.

Change won't happen until the MAGA voters feel the pain of their poor choices.

[bluestarone]

19. Agree! The problem as i see it will be

Are these MAGA'S smart enough to see who is causing their pain? (THIS i doubt)

[johnnyplankton]

18. It's our time. Most Americans have rarely known the real hardship that most of the world endures.

[bdamomma]

24. Exactly

It is our turn now we must STAND UP and RESIST.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. It's an internal struggle for me too, but maga & low-info types need a sharp shock to shake them loose

Just about all the other approaches have been tried. Now they need to understand the consequences of their stupidity.

[radical noodle]

25. Not only that

but wishing for things to get so bad that it causes the complete destruction of this evil bunch of criminals, but knowing it will cause great pain for ourselves and our loved ones.

[ismnotwasm]

26. You know, I was in a class the other day

For context I’m a nurse and I work with transplants. We had a brief lecture from one of our new surgeons about the innovations in solid organ transplant. He mentioned that a large proportion of transplant recipients are on Medicare/medicaid. He mentioned that the university attached to my hospital gets federal funding for research. We all understood the context here. Innovations come from research. People getting lives saving often transplants use federal money. Both are threatened, if not directly—not yet—but we know it’s coming

The fallout from what that asshole is doing spreads everywhere. We will get through it one day at a time, but the damage he’s doing is incalculable .

[usaf-vet]

28. I start to feel better when I see some of our elected officials fight back. The "shadow hearings" are a start!

After all, the legislators have enough short-term security and protected speech when acting in their elected positions.

But it is only a start, with a handful taking the steps. More need to step forward and soon!

[Sympthsical]

29. Watching people embrace their inner Sarandon

Well, it’s interesting is all.

[OldBaldy1701E]

31. Then, understand this.

Any suffering is caused by one's involvement with the status quo. I mean, a proper commune would never even notice what is going on right now if not for outside media. So, the suffering is the withdrawal from a way of life. That way of life is, by now, corrupted and being more corrupted every day. They have taken over that way of life. To continue to involve yourself in it is to create more suffering.

What if we all just stopped with the finance and started helping each other survive? I hear stories about people grifting hurricane and other disaster survivors and how it is such a despicable act. Shouldn't such behavior be held across the board? Now is the time for survival. It is not the time to continue to have people arrested because they were going through your restaurant's dumpster for food. (Happens all the time. Just give it to them, for fuck's sake, you were throwing it out anyway. And, yes I know plenty of places DO give their leftovers away. I worked in a few.) As you said, you want those who created this mess to go down hard. So do a lot of people. However, at this point is more like gangrene than a broken arm. There is only one thing to do about gangrene, once it sets in. It hurts. A lot. People will have to relearn how to do certain things because the old society does not exist anymore and we will have to adjust. This is not some fantasy novel... we are approaching this point. (Please note I said 'approaching'. We are not there yet.)

I am old. Do you think I have not, am not, and will not suffer along with everyone else? Do you think I am going to make it through this? I don't see it. I am a poor, old nothing. I will be one of the first to go by the 'slow' pass. Just wasting away because only the rich will be allowed to seek healthcare and only the positioned will be allowed to enjoy anything positive from society. (Oh wait... we are already at that point.) I could be such help in a new society that focuses more on each other than a green piece of paper. (The current one says I have nothing to offer other than two arms, two legs, and a back... and they don't work worth a crap anymore. Our 'overlords' don't care though... I am supposed to die behind the tiller, so to speak.) They hold all the cards and refuse to part with any of it. And, we will just toil away to keep them there.

All that has to stop. All of it. Now.

Unless some one flies in with a white hat and a cape on, we have to be the ones to make it through this. And, by 'this' I mean the fall of the corporate model being used as a societal one. We should have paid more attention to the wealthy when they started their game, but they had spent a long time convincing us that they were the epitome of our society and their way of life was the only one that mattered. (This was after destroying our ability to focus for more than a few seconds at a time. That took a decade or so.) How many deaths came from chasing/stealing/losing wealth... solely because the ones that had it said how awesome it was to have? We have to help each other. Now is the time for the concept of 'neighbors' and 'community' to stop hiding behind the fear generated by the wealthy, who hate it when we show how to survive without money or prestige. (They REALLY hate it.)

We are learning why it was all bad now. Even those who thought they were not being a part of the 'evil oligarch' mentality now can see that they are. Being responsible is understanding that this had to happen. And, we all bear some fault for letting them implement their corporate mentality on every aspect of our lives. It is time to let it die out. Like a popular teen fad, just let it go. Let's build something better... something progressive... something that relies on our togetherness and our combined strengths as opposed to a society that oppresses for profit and power in some vain attempt to win over the masses.

I don't want anyone to suffer. I will do what I can to help others every step of the way out of this helltopia we created by following the callow and empty of heart. (Once I am able to, as I am one of the ones in a bit of a pickle.) We all can. Letting them win is letting them control us with that green paper. Stop letting them win. Let's do something to help each other as well as ourselves and quit with the 'I gotta save the portfolio and the bank account' mentality. Those who are good with gardens, help others plant one. More food from the ground cuts out the middle man. Those good with carpentry and other construction, help those who need their homes repaired. Those who have the skills and the means, share. Stop worrying about being paid. You will be paid in a more sound community. Forget the speedboat (unless you plan to use it for community building). I know that is a 'dirty word' these days, We can survive this fairly easily if we stop financing their endeavors and start 'investing' in our communities and then our regions, and then our states, and then... you get the idea. It always stuns me that there is a strong belief that we just cannot trust each other. That it would be bad to help each other. They created this myth and they want it to continue.

We just need to let go of the current societal model. The one in place today was not meant to be such anyway, so we should be capable of removing it. (Please notice I did not say our governmental model. I am talking about what has taken over our culture and our society. The governmental model is in the process of being corrupted. The societal one was already corrupted.)

(Annnnd, I guess I just let my very progressive, humanitarian flag fly... sorry, but it is how I feel about all this. We can make it through while letting the bad parts die out. We just have to understand that only by our combined efforts will the suffering be lessened and made to be irrelevant as a means of punishment and control. Which means enough with the capitalism and enough with the greed (and desire to rule over others... looking at you, overzealous evangelicals).

Go ahead... call me crazy and an alarmist. As I have said here before, when that time comes which shows I was wrong about all this, I will happily admit that I was wrong. Happily and loudly. (I will be pretty stunned, but I will happily do it.) Will anyone who disagrees with me now do the same when the time comes?

[stopdiggin]

37. "Any suffering is caused by one's involvement with the status quo."

With due respect .... Nonsense.

And some flight of fancy where the people of the world would all tend their own vegetable gardens - and their fellow man - while occasionally engaging in a 'barter' system. (and no other real regard for the 'outside' world) Is frankly just that - a poetic fantasy, describing a world (and human beings) - that not only don't exist - but by any reasonable reading, never really did.

There are children that are going to end up dead (and parents grieve) that have never even heard the term 'status quo' - and furthermore don't even speak the language! (and a very good argument can be made that more of them will die with the removal of status quo - than would have been the case had there never been any.)

[OldBaldy1701E]

60. "Is frankly just that - a poetic fantasy"

" ...describing a world (and human beings) - that not only don't exist - but by any reasonable reading, never really did."

Oh, so that is why we should not try it and return to the one we had that allowed massive inequity, even more corruption, and fraud in the name of greed and stupid superiority.

I thought it was because we had a better idea...

The desire to keep on building prosperity on the corpses of others is just not what I want in the world. Sorry.

(Also, I need to go back and check, but I don't recall ever saying anything about 'returning' to something. In fact, I think I mentioned being 'progressive' about this a few times. But, like I said, I need to re-check.)

[stopdiggin]

61. it is/was the "Any suffering is caused by one's involvement with the status quo."

And the crushing generalization and over-simplification - coupled with a hefty dose of condescension therein ...
That really got under my skin.

So - anyone that's ever put food on the table by means other than digging for tubers in the forest growth (and snares for small animals) ...
Is therefore responsible for the 'suffering' ... Coming down not only on their heads - but the heads of all others, including the innocent, and those yet to be born .. ?

Bit heavy-handed .. ? Little lacking in any degree of nuance ?

I really have not quarrel with your (or anyone else's) efforts to envision and effect a more equitable world.
But, Jebus god, man ... Go a little easy on the 'preachy', the shallow - and especially the trite pronouncements.

[OldBaldy1701E]

62. My apologies for the delay in responding to your post.

I have been shaking and otherwise having a major panic attack from the fact that we may have been scammed over a place to live. I am still trying not to pay much attention to the pain in my stomach (probably an ulcer) nor the pain in my chest (there is no 'probably' about that one). Mainly since I can't do much about either of them anyway. Just life in these United States.

Firstly, I wish to correct what I feel is a misunderstanding. When I said that those who will suffer will do so because they are involved with the system that causes the suffering, I am saying that the suffering comes from the system and therefore that system needs to be removed. We will all suffer, because we cannot remove ourselves from that system because the is no other system to move to. That level of dependency is what creates the suffering because we cannot live without 'playing the game', so to speak. If one is not prone to doing well in the game, one has no other options. That needs to change. I was not saying that those who participate in the system are to blame for causing the suffering. (Although there are some who do fit that description.)

I am afraid I don't see much preaching', other than saying that this system is too far gone, that it is the main cause of the suffering we see on a daily basis, and needs to be replaced. I will say that until the day I die or things change. As far as the rest, well I am afraid I don't see your implications without more specific references.

I will close with this. If you are aware of someone who lives in the US, is capable of not only surviving but managing a decent life here, and does not play the capitalist game. I would sure like to hear about that person. Because our system does not allow anything else.

Which is my first problem with it.

It still boils down to what you hold more dear in your heart... human beings or material wealth. You may not have seen what I have seen and you may not have had the same experiences in life that I have, but based on my observations, it looks like the current society has made its choice in regards to that dilemma. Otherwise, we would no have a single person suffering in this country, nor a single homeless one, nor one who does not have a reason to live other than supporting someone else's good life.

[elocs]

32. The simple truth is that it is all over but for the shouting.

The time to have practically stopped Trump was to not elect him in the presidential election of '24, but I think that too many of us on the Left were not vigilant to protect our democracy from the right. We underestimated maga as being just a bunch of stolen election whiners when there really enough of them evil enough and intelligent enough to steal a nation and too many of us were complacent about their ability to pull it off. And all of this caused us to be overconfident concerning the dangers that Trump and maga posed for our country.
And now we are in the midst of Trump's shock and awe

Even if it were possible, Trump could never run in a legitimate 3rd term election because he will have alienated tens of millions of people who voted for him in '24. So, we will have a dictator in one way or another and we may well have elections in '26 but they won't be free and fair elections. As Stalin is quoted as saying, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything."

I'm 72 and thought when I retired 10 years that I'd have a quiet and uneventful retirement, but that was not to be. I just learned today that the little girl next door will turn 3 tomorrow and she will grow up never knowing what America once was which will likely be easier for her compared to those of us who for all of their lives has known this as once a great, if imperfect nation that was admired by much or most of the world.

[Hope22]

38. Interesting that you blame the left

For the people on the right putting their heads in the sand, doing what the preacher said and sucking on the teat of FOXNews! Nothing will ever be easy for a female here…no matter what you wish for. Noticing the last of our high ranking military women being fired. If your little neighbor gets to vote when she is 18 it will be a miracle.

[elocs]

41. I don't blame the Left but there is blame for the Left. The GOP, the right, maga are what they are.

We on the Left got too comfortable with things and failed to be vigilant. We allowed the right to engage in street fight tactics while Democrats imposed Marquis of Queensberry rules on themselves. I don't expect much of anything from the right, but I think Democrats got to be too complacent.

[Hope22]

44. If anything we failed to see the media working 24/7 against us.

I think your quarrel is with the Supreme Court / Citizen's United and monopoly on Television and newspapers. Either way I’ve probably seen 50 comments such as these two get sent to jury. Be careful.

[elocs]

46. Your comment is put before a jury that you know nothing about until they hand down to you a guilty verdict when you knew

Your comment is put before a jury that you know nothing about until they hand down to you a guilty verdict when you knew nothing about the trial and they find you guilty of a comment that they won't even reveal to you.
It would be a great example for our court system---not. Frankly, there's too much constant bad news here that it gets depressing. So let 'em leap if they feel froggy.

[appleannie1]

33. We will make it through and it certainly will not be a walk in the park.

We will have to stick together, look out for each other and be resourceful like people in the 1930's were. One thing we won't be is guilty of causing it.

[Sky Jewels]

35. You're a better person than I am.

I DO want Magat-Americans to suffer. A lot. They deserve it for destroying our country and our country's place in the world. Yes, we will all suffer. But the silver lining is that these stupid asswipes will get comeuppance. I'm all out of compassion for them. They have none for no one but themselves, and they revel in cruelty. Fuck 'em.

[Ferrets are Cool]

40. I completely understand

[NNadir]

36. Your problem will solve itself in pulses.

How it happens and when it happens and to whom it happens might seem random, but hubris checks itself.

The cheering crowds in Berlin in 1940 when Germany defeated and humiliated France were replaced by crowds in the same city forming bucket brigade to pick through the rubble on destroyed buildings.

Hubris ends up as suicide. It rains on the just and unjust alike.

[swong19104]

39. The question is

what is your definition of “success” and does that jibe with Trump’s definition of success. And does either definition jibe with a nation’s and a world’s definition of success. And is there a presumed length of time for this success to endure. A success that spans a weekend isn’t as good as success that spans generations. (Again, depending on how one is defining “success”.)

[DFW]

43. I admire your magnanimity.

I want plenty of Americans to suffer. Those who, being of (discernably) sound mind, who do not have innocent dependents who couldn’t vote, willingly supported and voted for Trump—I wish them loss of employment and health insurance coverage. I wish them complete and utter financial ruin. I mean to the point where they have no other source of income than begging for change on street corners, or being forced to plead for handouts from friends and relatives who warned them about Trump before the election, and whom they ridiculed for it.

[Ferrets are Cool]

45. I, honestly, agree with you.

[DFW]

48. Ah, OK. You scared me for a moment.

I was going to call Sredni Vashtar to straighten you out.

[GoCubsGo]

49. As someone who never got out of the Bush recession,

I am all out of fucks to give for ANYONE who is responsible for us being where we are right now.. That includes anyone who couldn't get of their asses and vote. Hope they all wind up in my boat.

[Skittles]

55. yes

I find myself seething over people who couldn't be bothered to vote against fascism, WTF

[pat_k]

50. Even if by some magic he doesn't devastate the world economy...

...their intolerable assault on the American Constitutional order and destruction of every institution capable of manifesting the will of the American people cannot be allowed to stand. This is not about the fucking economy. It is about PATRIOTS defending the American commitment to the four freedoms and asserting the decency and values that have driven us to strive for an evermore perfect union.

I would rather live through a depression in a good nation than than live in prosperity in an immoral, lawless, oppressive, and evil nation

[usonian]

51. When we win.

[ThoughtCriminal]

52. "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." - Kosh (Babylon 5)

They will fail. People will suffer. They will try to deflect blame to the suffering. That works - for a short time.

[Skittles]

54. I hear you

I am rooting for Canada, for example - I know their boycotts harm America but I DON'T FUCKING BLAME THEM

[Ferrets are Cool]

56. Me too

[ForgedCrank]

57. If I

were to offer an opinion, it would be to say that one should never be so dedicated to a philosophy that they would want an opposing one to fail, most especially when it will cause suffering. The more logical approach is to wish for success no matter the vehicle that delivers it, and be willing to accept it if and when we are wrong.
And here's my disclaimer that seems to always need to be said with any opinion: No, I don't agree that his methods are correct. I'm simply stating that winning isn't about being right, it's about positive results and outcome. If my philosophy required people to suffer for the sole purpose of being right, I'd consider my philosophy to be seriously flawed.

[Midwestern Democrat]

63. Agreed. I'm a Democrat because it aligns with my own standards of morality and humanism - I'm certainly not going to

place the political fortunes of the Democratic Party over those standards.

[Blaukraut]

58. The problem is that they will never learn

No matter how much pain and suffering they will endure, there will always be justification as to why it's a good thing. Just look at how Fox is spinning this latest calamity as a necessary pain to go through in order for men to finally become more manly, doing physical labor in fine manufacturing jobs while the little woman is home, cleaning and cooking.

People will always find a way to not have to admit they were wrong about anything. It's human nature.

[Emile]

59. Republicans must come to their senses before it's too late.